訊息原文

7 人回報1 則回應2 年前
CNN 對台積電董事長劉德音的專訪翻譯逐字稿
On GPS: Can China afford to attack Taiwan?
Fareed Zakaria, GPS
In a rare interview with Mark Liu, chairman of Taiwan's TSMC — Asia's most valuable company — Fareed asks about the ongoing tension between the self-governing island and Beijing. Source: CNN
Fareed Zakaria:
如果中國攻打台灣,那會如何影響台灣,以及台灣的經濟?
What would happen to Taiwan, and to the Taiwanese economy, if China were to invade?
劉德音:
噢,當然,戰場上沒有贏家;所有人都是輸家。台灣人已在台灣建立起自己的民主系統,然後他們想過自己的生活。雖然半導體產業對台灣整體經濟來說十分重要,但如果真的發生戰爭的話,那或許半導體業不是最需要我們擔心的事。我們真正需要擔心的是這場戰爭將會摧毀以具有穩定秩序的世界經貿活動(the destruction of the world rule-based order);整個地理政治將會有劇烈的變化。
Oh, of course, the war brings no winners. Everybody is losers. And people in Taiwan has earned their democratic system in Taiwan, and they want to choose their way of life. And we think that indeed the chip supply is a critical business and economy in Taiwan, but had it -- had it been a War in Taiwan, probably the chip is not the most important thing we should worry about because this invasion, if it comes after, is the destruction of the world rule-based order. There is no -- the geopolitical landscape would totally change.
Fareed Zakaria:
你會擔心台灣目前在中國半導體供應鏈上所扮演的核心角色嗎? 這會對台灣造成甚麼危險嗎? 還是說其實有戰略上的嚇阻效果? 畢竟有時大家會說台積電是台灣的護國神山。不過即便如此,我們還是知道中國一直都強調「我們對台灣有絕對的主權,而且這是我們不可退讓的中國資產」。
Do you worry that Taiwan is now so integral to the Chinese supply chain at the high end?.. Does that create a danger for Taiwan? Or is it a deterrent? People sometimes talk about the TSMC shield, but you could equally see Beijing saying we need to have total control of this. This is the most valuable asset and it's outside our borders.
劉德音:
嗯,沒有國家能夠用武力控制台積電的,因為如果中國解放軍真的入侵台積電,台積電就完全不能運作了,因為這是一個十分複雜的龐大組織。台積電從原料、化學物質、設備零件、工程軟體與檢測等各面向都隨時都需要跟外面的世界,歐洲、日本、美國相互溝通合作。是在世界上的所有人的努力才能讓這間公司,台積電,能夠正常運作。所以假如你用武力侵占了台積電,那台積電就不可能正常運作了,也就沒有所謂的台積電了。至於我們與中國的生意,目前中國大概占了我們 10% 的生意吧,但我們只會跟一般企業與消費者做生意,我們不會將晶片賣給軍事組織。我們覺得說,消費市場是很重要的,而且是生生不息的。如果消費者有需求,那我想,跟他們做生意並不是甚麼壞事。
Ok. Nobody can control TSMC by force. If you take a military force or invasion, you will render TSMC factory not operable because this is such a sophisticated manufacturing facility. It depends on the real-time connection with the outside world, with Europe, with Japan, with the US, from materials, to chemicals, to spare parts, to engineering software, diagnosis. It's everybody's effort to make this factory operable. So if you take it over by force, you can no longer make it operable. In terms of the China business, its today composed about 10% of our business. We only work with consumer. We don't work with militaries entity. We think that is, the consumer pool, is important, and it is vibrant. And if they need us, it's not a bad thing.
Fareed Zakaria:
解釋一下,為什麼這(台積電跟中國做生意)不是壞事?
Expand on that. Why is it not a bad thing?
劉德音:
噢,這是因為我們停止運作後將會為中國帶來巨大的經濟損失,因為他們最先進的半導體晶片突然就這樣消失了,所以他們在做這種"武力犯台"之前,我想必定會三思而後行的。
你看烏克蘭戰爭,我想我們都得從中好好反省與汲取些經驗。人們認為烏克蘭跟台灣非常像,但我得說台灣跟烏克蘭非常不一樣。想想烏俄戰爭對各國帶來的種種負面影響,對任何國家來說都不是好事。從西方世界、俄羅斯與烏克蘭的角度來看,都是輸家,沒有人從中獲得好處。我真的認為大家都應該要好好反省這場戰爭究竟為我們人類帶來了甚麼,想想我們應該要如何避免戰爭,想想我們該如何確保全球經濟的穩定,如何讓全球經濟能持續生生不息,而且也讓我們以公平的方式相互競爭,這是我的想法。
Oh, because our interruption will create great economic turmoil in either side in China because suddenly their most advanced components supply disappeared. And -- and it is an interruption, I must say. So people will think twice on this. I think the Ukraine war, I think we should draw lessons from it. People think Ukraine will make connected with the Taiwan Strait. They are very different. But in case you think about imperil, Ukraine war is not good for any of the sides. From the Western world, from Russia, from Ukraine, it's lose, lose, lose scenarios. All three sides ought to draw lessons. I think they do. And we should use that lessons to look at the lens on Taiwan. How can we avoid a war? How can we ensure no -- the world economy -- the engine of the world economy continue humming and let's have a fair competition. That's what I think.
Fareed Zakaria:
就你看來,你會怎麼解釋台灣的經濟奇蹟? 在過去五十年裡,台灣經濟成功達到每年有 5% 的經濟成長。世上很少能夠有著像台灣經濟成長幅度這樣的國家,你怎麼看呢?
From your perspective, what explains the Taiwan miracle? This is now a place that has grown at 5% a year for five decades. There are very few places in the world that have managed that. What explains the Taiwan miracle?
劉德音:
從外人的角度來看,會覺得這是一個奇蹟。但對認真工作的台灣人來說,這只是奮鬥的過程。老實說我覺得,相較於其他國家,尤其是在亞洲,我覺得台灣其中一個特點在於它那和平的社會。從 1949 年到現在,台灣一直都是相當和平的。這是個和平的地方。而在這期間,台灣從威權主義社會轉型成民主國家,變成一個民主社會。而如果你從整個世界的角度來看這點,如此這般和平的社會轉型是相當神奇的事情,我們是非常幸運的。而如果真要說奇蹟,我想台灣的確還有一點是相當與眾不同的,那就是我們的教育制度。
在我還小的時候,只有 10% 的人上大學。如今有 80% 的年輕人擁有大學文憑。我們政府設立了非常多間大學,所以對於所有年輕人來說,如果你想讀大學,那一定可以讀,只要你願意花時間,所以這建立了一個相對高品質的社會環境,以面對未來可能的種種挑戰,這是我覺得非常非常特別的一點。
Looking from outside, it appears to be a miracle. For the people working hard on the island, it is just a history of fighting. I think, to be honest, compared with other nations, particularly in Asia, I think one of the key components in Taiwan is a peaceful society. It maintained peace since 1949 till today, 70 years. It's a peaceful island. And during that period of time, Taiwan has transformed from authoritarian state into a democratic state, became a democratic society. This is marvelous because if you look at the nations around the world, having such a smooth transition, peaceful transition, we are fortunate, to be honest. But if you talk about the miracles, I also think there's one thing that is very distinctly different, is the education system. When I was young, only 10% of the young people entered college or universities. Today, 80% of the young people have college or university degrees. The government set up many colleges, universities. And every kid, if you want to go to university, you can go, and just so long as you spend time. So that has created a relatively good quality of population in Taiwan, posing for any change ahead. That's why I think that's very, very special.
Fareed Zakaria:
為什麼其他人都很難做出你做的晶片呢? 我現在在想的是你們的七奈米,美國有非常多擁有輝煌歷史的偉大公司,像是 Intel。而中國則是撒了數十億的資金去開設晶圓廠,但都沒有人能做出你們的晶片。
Why is it so difficult for anyone to make the chips that you make? And I'm thinking now about the 7 nanometer. The Americans have these great companies that have huge history, like Intel. The Chinese pour tens of billions of dollars into new companies. But no one can make the chips you make.
劉德音:
嗯,可以啊,只是晚幾年而已,就...哈哈哈哈...
Well, they can, just a few years later. It's ... hahaha ...
Fareed Zakaria:
但這就是重點啊...
But that's all the difference in this business.
劉德音:
沒錯,這是唯一的關鍵。我想我們是把半導體技術本身看做是一門科學,但也是一門生意。這不是組裝零件那樣而已。當然,這一切都得歸功於我們與其他夥伴的合作。我們的工程師甚至因為 COVID 而戴上 AR (擴充虛擬實境) 跟遠在荷蘭以及加州的工程師合作,我們就是這麼密切的合作,共同推進最先進的半導體技術。我只能說這麼多了,沒辦法跟你透漏與解釋所有細節。
You're right. That's all the difference. I think we treat the semiconductor technology itself as a business, as a science. It's not assembly workers. And, of course, I credit this to be working with our partners. Even the COVID time, our engineer used the AR, augmented reality, lenses to work with engineer in Netherland, work with engineer in California. And that's how close we work together. And together, we push the frontier of the semiconductor technologies. I cannot tell you everything why.
Fareed Zakaria:
哦當然你不可能跟我說可口可樂的配方的...哈哈...。好,最後一個問題,在技術與經濟層面上,你會怎麼看待未來? 你的願景是甚麼?
You're not going to tell me the secret formula of coca cola. Finally, tell me what you think will look like in the future, technologically, economically. What are your hopes?
劉德音:
我希望我們不會因為很接近中國而被歧視(discriminated)。不論我們跟中國的關係是甚麼,台灣就是台灣。你得把台灣視為一個整體,視為一個充滿活力與衝勁的社會。我們希望能為世界帶來創新,並持續不斷地推進未來,而不會因為我們跟中國有些紛爭而害怕我們。這實在是不值得。
I hope that we don't get discriminated because we are close to China. No matter your relationship with China, Taiwan is Taiwan. You have to look at Taiwan as, by itself, a vibrant society. We want to unleash the innovation for the world, into the future, continuously, and not to be scared because we have some dispute with our neighbors. And that is not worth it.
Fareed Zakaria:
這你這樣好像是在跟世界說 ── 如果我理解錯誤請糾正我 ── 不要害怕中國說的那些話。因為中國永遠不可能接手台灣。台灣經濟是建立於全球合作,建立於信任與公開透明之上。如果他們侵入台灣,他們會發現實際上他們甚麼也沒拿到。
But it seems to me you're saying to the world -- correct me if I'm wrong -- you're saying to the world, don't be scared by what China is saying because the Chinese will never be able to take. The Taiwanese economy is built on this global collaboration, -- on trust, on openness, on -- they'll find they've taken over nothing, if they come in.
劉德音:
正確,沒錯,我的確是這麼想的,所以我們大家只會為彼此帶來災難,每一方都是如此。雖然我們得做最壞打壞,但還是盡量往最好的方向看齊。
Correct, yes, I do believe so. So the world can only create problem on three sides, all three sides. And that is -- we need to prepare the worst, but we should hope for the best.
Fareed Zakaria:
你剛有提到烏克蘭戰爭是 lose-lose-lose,所以你希望可以 win-win-win。
So you said about the Ukraine war, it's lose-lose-lose. Your hope is for a win-win-win.
劉德音:
對,如果真的開戰了,那就會變成這樣。如果一切和平,那麼就只跟我們三方的競爭策略有關,我想在商場上沒有人會想要發生戰爭,所以我們又為什麼要再跳進這個陷阱(戰爭)裡呢?
Yes, if you have a war, then it will be that. If this is peaceful, well, it's upon the competition strategies on all three sides. And I think that nobody in the business world want to see a war happen. And why do we jump again into another trap?
Fareed Zakaria:
感謝你寶貴的時間。
Thank you for taking so much time
劉德音:
很高興能參與訪談。
We enjoy talking to you.
(zero game 2)(sun over mountain)(praying)

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  • Exclusive, America does want a war, but it needs China to be blamed for it. Here's the story. Many people around the world are wondering why there's been so many negative news stories about China in recent years. We're told that Chinese have killed Hong Kong, a genocide in Xinjiang, and are about to invade Australia. But none of that is remotely fair as a portrayal of what's really happening. So what's the deal? My colleague Phil Hines and I have found answers to that question. By putting the media aside, we've been talking to and studying the views of diplomats, strategists and other people in the know. We've just published a pair of reports giving the real story. US military strategists have realised that it's now inevitable that Asia will be the economic centre of the world. Given the speed of growth here, China's primacy can no longer be prevented. The West is desperate to win the 21st century. So America has been working to unite the world against China using disinformation, NGOs and the media. So for example, the US is endlessly provoking China over Taiwan, and the media is writing it up as China being aggressive. In 2019, America tried everything it could to make the PLA take control of Hong Kong, but China refused to take the bait. This year, the US is using Taiwan to do the exact same trick. We have quotes in our reports from several sources, including from the US. For now, China appears to be following the advice of Lao Tzu. To make muddy water settle into clear water, the only tool you need is patience. Peace.
    1 人回報1 則回應1 年前
  • Oh, we like war. We like war. We're a war-like people. We like war because we're good at it. You know why we're good at it? Because we get a lot of practice. This country's only 200 years old and already we've had 10 major wars. We average a major war every 20 years in this country, so we're good at it. And it's a good thing we are. We're not very good at anything else anymore. Can't build a decent car. Can't make a TV set or a VCR. What the fuck? Got no steel industry left. Can't educate our young people. Can't get health care to our old people. But we can bomb the shit out of your country, all right? We can bomb the shit out of your country, all right? Especially if your country is full of brown people. Oh, we like that, don't we? That's our hobby. That's our new job in the world, bombing brown people. Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya. You've got some brown people in your country. Tell them to watch the fuck out. Or we'll goddamn bomb them. But when's the last white people you can remember that we bombed? Can you remember the last white? Can you remember any white people we've ever bombed? The Germans. Those are the only ones. And that's only because they were trying to cut in on our action. They wanted to dominate the world. Bullshit. That's our fucking job. Think of how we started. Think of that. This country was founded by a group of slave owners who told us all men are created equal. Oh yeah. All men. Except for Indians and niggers and women, right? Always like to use that authentic American language. This was a small group of unelected white male land-holding slave owners who also suggested their class be the only one allowed to vote. Now that is what's known as being stunningly and embarrassingly full of shit. I think Americans really show their ignorance when they say they want their politicians to be honest. What are these fucking cretins talking about? If honesty were suddenly introduced into American life, the whole system would collapse. No one would know what to do. Honesty would fuck this country up. And I think deep down Americans know that. That's why they elected and re-elected Bill Clinton. That's why. Because the American people like their bullshit right out front where they can get a good strong whiff of it. Clinton might be full of shit, but at least he lets you know it. Dole tried to hide it, didn't he? Dole kept saying, I'm a plain and honest man. Bullshit. People don't believe that. What did Clinton say? He said, hi folks, I'm completely full of shit, and how do you like that? And the people said, you know something, at least he's honest.
    1 人回報2 則回應2 年前
  • Mr. Chu, does TikTok access the home Wi-Fi network? Only if the user turns on the Wi-Fi. I﹑m sorry, I may not understand the﹑ So if I have TikTok app on my phone and my phone is on my home Wi-Fi network, does TikTok access that network? It will have to access the network to get connections to the Internet, if that﹑s the question. Is it possible then that it could access other devices on that home Wi-Fi network? Congressman, we do not do anything that is beyond any industry norms. It has spiked and spied on American citizens. I don﹑t think that spying is the right way to describe it. The only face data that you will get that we collect is when you use the filters to have sunglasses on your face. We need to know where your eyes are. Why do you need to know what the eyes are if you﹑re not seeing if they﹑re dilated? American data stored on American soil by an American company overseen by American personnel. We call this initiative Project Texas. Please rename your project. Texas is not the appropriate name. We stand for freedom and transparency, and we don﹑t want your project. You damn well know that you cannot protect the data and security of this committee or the 150 million users of your app, because it is an extension of the CCP. From the data it collects to the content it controls, TikTok is a grave threat of foreign influence in American life. It hurts me to hear questions this dumb and self-serving. Watching these congressional leaders, people we elected to represent us, are you kidding? At least people can see how stupid the people who run our country are. At least people can see forever positions, these no-term limits, what a problem it is to have these people get elected over and over again, never having heard their thoughts before, never having seen how stupid. And misaligned they are, how out of touch with the American people they are, and all they care about is their own power. If you listen to these members of Congress speak, you would think that they were rulers, emperors. Congress is full of queens and kings and mob bosses. These are the people that run our country, the people who are in charge of our future. They are so incredibly stupid, like so dumb. I, I, a guy literally asked if TikTok connects to the WiFi. How did we get here? You'd think they'd accidentally land on a point. And I give credit to the CEO, honestly, he weathered the storm. He was the only one who knew what the fuck they were talking about. These old, out of touch motherfuckers, they were bond paid for by Mark Zuckerberg. And it's just so obvious that they've never once used the app. I'm embarrassed for our country, I really am. We must be the fucking laughingstock of the world right now.
    1 人回報1 則回應1 年前
  • We're the ones provoking this war, just like we provoked the war in Ukraine. We are now provoking a war with China and who benefits? I'll tell you right now, your enemy is not China. Your enemy is not Russia. Your enemy is the military industrial complex, which has been fleecing this country to the tunes of hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars. How many times are we going to have a defense secretary say, hey, we can't account for $2 trillion in the Pentagon again, which has happened twice now in my life. So again, people are being the war machine cannot be stopped. Who's running this country? The war machine. It certainly isn't Joe Biden making these decisions. I would like to know who is making the decisions. And I just want to remind everybody, the United States is the world's terrorists. We just set the Middle East on fire in the last 20 years. And now we're doing a proxy war in Ukraine, which we provoked, NATO provoked, and it was just admitted that we provoked it by the former prime minister of Germany. And now we're trying to save a writer with with China and they're predicting a war. Again, China's not going to invade us. China's not our enemy. We might have an economic war. That's what these are. These are economic wars. These are wars for in Ukraine. It's about liquefied natural gas and making sure Germany and Russia never come together because we fear Russia's natural resources and manpower. And we fear them getting together with Germany with their technology and their capital. And so that's why we blew up the Nord Stream pipeline. That's why we're doing the Ukraine war. This is all about hegemony, imperialism and economics. And if there's a marine somewhere, it's there because they're about to steal some natural resources from another country. As everybody's screaming about what a bad guy Putin is for invading Ukraine, the United States is currently occupying a third of Syria. And which third is that? It's the third that has the oil. And how do I know we're there to steal their oil? Because the president of the United States said so.
    1 人回報1 則回應1 年前
  • _______ 台積電董事長劉德音接受CNN的Fareed Zakaria專訪,雖然一開始有些緊張,但是後來漸入佳境,Zakaria問出大家都想問的問題,劉德音則給出很高明的答案,是一個非常成功的訪問。 最厲害的地方在於Zakaria問道:「你是否擔心台灣如此高度整合至中國的高端供應鏈中,是否會對台灣造成威脅?台積電經常被稱為護國神山,但是也因此招來中國宣稱要掌控台積電,中國不容許對他們最有價值的資產在其國界之外。」 這個問題不僅是避戰的矽盾 vs 引戰的和氏璧二選一的難題,同時問題中內嵌「台積電已經高度整合進中國高端供應鏈」中,可能引發美國觀眾疑慮。 劉德音的回答十分高明,不落入對方的問題框架。他表示沒有人可以透過武力控制台積電,因為這會讓台積電陷入一個無法營運的狀態,因為像台積電這樣一個複雜的晶圓廠,是與外在世界有即時的聯結才得以維持營運,包括由歐洲、日本、美國等國家,從材料、化學品、到設備備品等供應等,透過許多人的努力才讓台積電晶圓廠能夠營運。所以,若是用武力拿下台積電,台積電也無法繼續營運下去。 然後劉德音接著說:因此讓中國高度需要台灣,並不是一件壞事。這裡劉德音埋下伏筆,要化解美國觀眾疑慮。 果然引發Zakaria 好奇追問,劉德音見上鉤後,繼續說道,因為若台積電的營運中斷,將會對中國各面向的經濟造成巨大動亂,特別是中國最先進的零組件供應將因此消失,進而造成整個供應鏈運作中斷,會讓中國做事之前需要三思而行。
    1 人回報1 則回應2 年前
  • Professor, you said a lot of wonderful things about China, and surely they're doing a lot of things right. But how do you reconcile the fact that to make it work for China, it seems to be based on a high level of repression? Environmental destruction, censorship, a certain ideological stubbornness. I mean, we've spoken about Hong Kong, the Uighurs. How do you reconcile that, and do you think that's tolerable? Thank you. I'm really glad you asked that question, because your question captured very well the Anglo-Saxon media's perception of China. And I would suggest to you, very bluntly, that it's a distorted perspective of reality. Let's take the first word you use, repression. If the Communist Party of China only relied on repression to stay in power, it would not create the most dynamic economy in the world, right? It is by far the most dynamic economy in the world. It has delivered the fastest growing economy for 30 years. And it has done this by educating the Chinese people to a level and extent that the Chinese people have never been educated ever before. And you say it's repression? You obviously are taking the old Cold War mindset. I was in Moscow in 1976, and I saw repression in Moscow. And when I was in Moscow, the Soviet citizens were not allowed to travel outside the Soviet Union. That's repression. In the year 2019, 139 million Chinese left China freely. Guess what? Zero defectors. 139 million Chinese, right? That's twice the population of the UK, went back to China. So all your description, when you say environmental degradation, China's climate change policies are far more responsible than those of the United States, which has not once, but twice withdrawn from global environmental protocols. Kyoto Protocol, the Bush administration left eight years. Paris Accords, Trump administration left four years. And you know what? The reason why we're having climate change today is not because of new flows of greenhouse gas emissions from China and India. It's because of what the Western countries have put in the atmosphere since the Western Industrial Revolution. Get the data. The single largest contributor, cumulatively, right? It's number one, United States, number two, Europe, number three, China, right? And the West wants China to pay an economic price for the current flows, but the West doesn't want to pay an economic price for what it put in the atmosphere. You want to deprive the Indians of electricity when the United States could just, by the way, if the United States could impose a dollar a gallon tax, that would save the world. Cut down gasoline consumption, raise money for investment in green technology, simple solutions. And by contrast, the largest reforestation program in the world is carried out by China. It has already reforested an area the size of Belgium or bigger, right? So all your descriptions capture the natural distortions of China that you get in the Anglo-Saxon media, which violate the rules of the Enlightenment, which say that you must be rational, calm and objective, especially in understanding your adversary. And if the Chinese were as stupid and as incompetent as you describe them to be, don't worry about them. But I can assure you, you are now dealing with a far more intelligent and rational actor that doesn't fit any of the Anglo-Saxon categories that you applied to them. Please forgive my bluntness.
    3 人回報1 則回應1 年前